Felicia Wu Song is a Christian sociologist who says digital natives aren't as native as we think. Is there any hope for the rest of us? She says, yes.

Chris interviews Dr Felicia Wu Song about her new book Restless Devices. She explains her belief that our digital routines and habits are themselves forms of discipleship. She says they not only form our habits, but also shape our identity, community, and relationships.

And as a sociologist, Dr Song also draws attention to Big Tech's platforms and design decisions, the structures and systems they create, and the defaults those designs introduce to digitally mediated relationships.

Afterwards, Adam and Chris explore more what those routine and habits look like for them, and the struggles that come with the "immanent sense of the digital," as Dr Song puts it in her book. They imagine together what new habits and designs could help them better relate digitally to the most important people in their lives.